Bill Joslin interview – “Nonviolent Communication, Pt. 1 “Is NVC Consistent with the Trivium Method?”” – #229

Comments (8)

1. On 22 September 2014 at 12:44 Darrell Becker made the following statement on Facebook
   https://www.facebook.com/GnosticMedia/posts/10204818289886106

   “As to avoiding a focus on the grammar and logic, I believe my sophomoric attempt at this exploration was when I made my first show with Brett Veinotte, which covered the essential grammar of the pursuit I was attempting. The fact that this grammar was incomplete in the manner in which you’ve helped me see, Jan Irvin, is a humbling event, something to show all of us that grammar work is never done, but that it can be returned to again and again. I explored the logic of the tactics I promote in the next several shows on the School Sucks Podcast, again, showing how there were aspects which could have been added, such as a mention of the possible hypnotic nature of these skills. I would suggest that, perhaps or perhaps not, what I promote might actually be used to counter some aspects of NLP and certain applications of (so-called) NVC or even perverted versions of the Trivium. But I’m open to seeing how this might indeed not be so.”

   The following is an example, the one used in episode 230 – NVC Part 2, of how Mr. Becker’s own words are an example of Erickson’s techniques (the foundation of NLP, covert hypnosis and NVC.) We have broken the quote down, line by line, and explained how the technique is executed.

   http://www.gnosticmedia.com/txtfiles/NVC-DarellBeckers-OwnWord.pdf

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2. […] Trivium Education May 24, […]

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3. NVC has nothing to do with the Trivium. It neither contradicts it or agrees with it.
   It is about seeing the emotions of people behind their shield of thoughts.
   It teaches to connect with your own emotions and it teaches to connect with the emotions of people around you.
   Its building a shield of freedom against violent thinking, when the Trivium is like building a secure thinking house.
   The two have nothing to do with eachother.
   When Trivium has to do with the mind, NVC has to do with the heart.
   Sadly I see that the speakers in the video confuse two different methods as being contradictory to eachother, when I know that they are two different tools.

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   1. NVC is actually anti-Trivium as we’ve exposed here. NVC was developed by the CIA. NVC is not thinking, it’s using fallacies to project on to the other person what you think they believe or why they’re acting a certain way without asking. Sadly, I see you confuse the issues entirely as it’s laid out very clearly here. NVC is a tool for manipulating people and was developed by the CIA to thwart political movements. – Sorry, you’ll have to try again and get some actual facts behind it.

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      1. I know more about NVC than I do about the Trivium. I have been studying NVC for about 8 years and at the moment I’m engaged in the Compassion Course by Thom Bond. Thom learned NVC from Marshall Rosenberg. I am a relatively new student to the Trivium. I don’t think you’ve got your grammar right about NVC. NVC is an approach to enhanced communication, understanding and connection. It seeks to promote empathy for another and yourself. OFNR stands for Observations, Feelings, Needs and Requests. It is a tool and it is not the whole of NVC. The OFNR tool did seem quite manipulative to me when I first learned it but that is not its intent. With OFNR we make a factual observation (you are raising your voice) and then guess what the person could be feeling and what universal needs are not being met for them. The reason we guess the feelings and unmet needs is to make a deeper connection with the other person and what’s going on for them. We then expect that the person will say “yes you’ve understood me perfectly” or “no it’s something else”. Suggesting what someone is feeling and needing is not to diagnose them it’s to start a deeper conversation. I’m not comfortable with (or very good at) guessing a person’s feelings or needs so I don’t use this tool.

         I would go further to say the OFNR is aligned with the principles of the Trivium in that it is about using observable facts to come to an understanding of the situation and then taking action based on that understanding. Here’s what Wikipedia has to say…

         Observation: These are facts (what we are seeing, hearing, or touching) as distinct from our evaluation of meaning and significance. NVC discourages static generalizations. It is said that “When we combine observation with evaluation, others are apt to hear criticism and resist what we are saying.” Instead, a focus on observations specific to time and context is recommended.[1]: ch.3 

         Feelings: These are emotions or sensations, free of thought and story. These are to be distinguished from thoughts (e.g., “I feel I didn’t get a fair deal”) and from words colloquially used as feelings but which convey what we think we are (e.g., “inadequate”), how we think others are evaluating us (e.g., “unimportant”), or what we think others are doing to us (e.g., “misunderstood”, “ignored”). Feelings are said to reflect whether we are experiencing our needs as met or unmet. Identifying feelings is said to allow us to more easily connect with one another, and “Allowing ourselves to be vulnerable by expressing our feelings can help resolve conflicts.”[1]: ch.4 

         Needs: These are universal human needs, as distinct from particular strategies for meeting needs. It is posited that “Everything we do is in service of our needs.”[14] Marshall Rosenberg refers to Max-Neef’s model where needs may be categorised into 9 classes: sustenance, safety, love, understanding/empathy, creativity, recreation, sense of belonging, autonomy and meaning.[15] For more information, the Center for Nonviolent Communication has developed a needs inventory.[16]

         Requests: Requests are distinguished from demands in that one is open to hearing a response of “no” without this triggering an attempt to force the matter. If one makes a request and receives a “no” it is not recommended that one gives up, but that one empathizes with what is preventing the other person from saying “yes,” before deciding how to continue the conversation. It is recommended that requests use clear, positive, concrete action language.[1]: ch.6 

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4. Nonviolent communication by Marshall (((Rosenberg)))….

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5. I agree with just about everything that was said, but somethings not sitting right with me. Perhaps you can give your opinion Jan. It is this:

   Everything that was said is very powerful, logical and sensible. But I can’t help getting the feeling that you are seeking to…what would be the proper word…bulldose past the fact that we DO HAVE emotions. We are and ought to be rational beings. But we are not ONLY rational. We really and truly ARE emotional. It is an actual and necessary part of our human makeup. I don’t necessarily think you were trying to deny this fact, but I just kept feeling like you would rather that fact didn’t exist or something. Like ideally, emotions would wither and die.

   No doubt you didn’t want to go so far as to say THAT. And I DO appreciate you sounding the warning call as to how the emotional part of our being can be manipulated. But, again, perhaps I’m missing something (I hope so), but I kept feeling like you want the Trivium to dry up our emotionally. That we ought to react less and less emotionally to things until there is zero emotional reaction. This would certainly be ideal if you value logic most of all Human attributes. But if you wish to remain effective, you simply can’t brush aside emotions as irrational and illogical and thus trivial. They may be irrational and illogical, but they still ARE, and can thus be used as a fulcrum upon which to move the perception of existence.

   I would rather hear more along the lines of Gene Odening, when he says that the Trivium makes you more compassionate, and confident. These comments acknowledge the emotional attributes of man, and put the emotions on the same path and direction as that which the mind moves when applying the Trivium Method. Compassion is a very effective emotion. It can have a great effect on reality. On existence. To use an ancient metaphor, our emotions could be incorporated. In other words, we have an Emotional Body. If so, then confidence is akin to that body being “fit”. Confidence deals with emotion, or how one feels about the self. High confidence is high emotional fitness. This fitness allows us to react more strongly, not less so. We emote with power and force. We are confident because of the mental hygiene we have been practicing which allows us to know ourselves and existence clearly. So when a stimulus moves our senses, we have real strength and power to react as we please. We are emotionally fit, not dry or dead. And how will we use our strength. If we see clearly, we will see the flaws in another’s mind (logic) and the agenda in their rhetoric. But the true reaction ought to be compassion, as Gene said, for we ought to see their level of understanding, their pathway of conceptions, and where they are going wrong. If they seek to manipulate, we react with compassion by alerting our fellows with force towards truth, not necessarily wasting our time and effort by standing against error. Error can be quite effectively corrected by simply stating truth, rather than attacking the erring rhetor. This requires a high degree of clarity, but it is the Wisdom I seek to employ.

   And so, I argue, responding dryly will leave you ineffective to all except yourself and those who see clearly with you. Stating facts must be done with force and confidence, not directed towards the erring rhetor, but towards the audience. We are emotors. This “body” ought not be suppressed or starved, but strengthened and given proper hygiene by the Trivium Method.

   There is DANGEROUS emotional junk food being fed to those who pay no attention to their logico-emotional diet. And then they wonder why the world is dying of logico-emotional cancer. The answer is to use the Trivium Method to strengthen the hygiene and reserves of force within our emotional body – not to ultimately suppress and stifle it. A period of fasting may indeed be called for, but once one has found a healthy food source, they ought to nourish their emotional flesh properly and exercise regularly.

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6. And just for fun, I thought I’d add something about breathing. Breath is Spirit as defined by the Bible. You might not like the source, but that may be what they meant. I don’t know.

   Also, in a conceptual way, Breath could be argued to “give Spirit” or life and movement and feeling to a body or part. Breath is real, yes? It exists. It induces oxygen into the lungs, and through them into the blood. Oxygenated blood allows for cellular respiration, and the production of the energy molecules in the cells – both receptive nerve cells and motor nerve cells. It allows for these nerves to send and receive electrical impulse to and from brain and muscles. This means, that breath can be argued to be that which animates or ensouls or gives spirit to the body, which allows the body to emote or move – both its form and it’s mood and/or will.

   Breath could very well be called Spirit, if Spirit is that which allows movement and animation of the Human Being. They ought to have defined it, yes. But I think I have properly defined it here. Yes?

   And you could go ahead and test this definition, though you may cause damage, so be warned. Nevertheless, it is “on the table of reality.”

   Cut the circulation of your blood off to your foot. No oxygen will be allowed to the foot, as science understands it. And so the foot falls asleep. You cannot move it, the foot is denied it’s motive, and thus it cannot emote. And so, breath, by virtue of what it induces into the body, does directly “feed” or give fuel to the emotions.

   I will appeal to the Authority of Aristotle’s biological treatises, as well as William Harvey’s “Motion of the Heart and Blood” to verify the Path of oxygen from the breath, through the lungs, and into the bloodstream, as well as the effect which can be directly tested if desired, of obstructing blood flow leading to the obstruction of animation.

   Not only does Breath, sometimes A. K. A. Spirit ALLOW emotions, or movements of the form and mood and will of the Human – but Breath also directly influences the QUALITY of emotions, or what is moved and how.

   Breath, when done in particular patterns and frequencies, will effect the pH level of the blood, and can stimulate the production of a cascade of hormones which all produce their effects accordingly in the organism. These effects, begun by a breathing technique such as that which Wim Hoff has scientifically proven, can not only effect the micro-emotions or movements within the body, but can consequently stimulate the movements of the emotional body and brain or mind. As such, one can so alter their body with breath as to resist disease, fear, and even produce strength and resolve – they can even dangerously surpass this and be moved to anger and then rage, all started by the movement of Breath in a particular way.

   Now, I don’t know anything about NVC, and don’t pretend to. This isn’t even an attempt to defend it AT ALL. It probably is evil for all I know. But I hope I have presented what I do know about Breath, and what anyone can know if they experiment on the Grammar of their own body and emotions, and come to their own understanding.

   But again, I agree with you both: they did not say or define any of this in that slide. Nor did they show how perceptions ought to be connected to the rest of the process. I have no problem with breath being included, and it is a bit of a red herring to attack it in my opinion. Better to focus on what you did – that the Perceptions are divorced from their proper relation to the process. Indeed, for the map to be true, it would need to include all aspects of what it is to exist as human, and how they all interact – including breath. But to be able to make such a map would take much clarity of thought and a VERY KEEN PERCEPTION. 🙂

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